Public Service Announcement

"hillrat" (hillrat) 10/01/2020 at 09:26 • Filed to: None

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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 09:36

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https://jalopnik.com/nhtsa-declares-october-national-pedestrian-safety-month-1845220024

The comments on this one really made me mad. Why are people trying to shift all blame to pedestrians instead of acknowledging that making cars safer in the event of a pedestrian collision is extremely doable? 

Nibby > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 09:37

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re ad this

pip bip - choose Corrour > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 09:38

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BigBlock440 > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 09:41

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Root cause. You’re also shifting the blame, responsibility , and cost from the party that has more influence over the interaction, to everybody else.  Why should the driver care more about the pedestrian’s safety than the pedestrian does?

jminer > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 09:44

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Urambo Tauro > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 09:53

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I dunno if I’d call it blame- shifting . I mean, there’s plenty of blame to go around, and the topic invites commenters to vent their biggest frustrations over why these incidents happen. Distracted drivers are going to be the first thing that comes to mind for some of us , while others encounter so many distracted pedestrians that they’ll be inclined to rant about that instead. Both are equally important.

Just because I say we desperately need better driver education does NOT mean that I’m defending jaywalkers with their faces buried in their phones. Nor does it mean that drivers should bear the sole burden of having to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting one. Pedestrains need to be educated about road safety too. Un fortunately, re aching them is a little more complicated than the captive audience you get in a driver’s ed class...

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > BigBlock440 10/01/2020 at 09:54

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Like people were citing all these instances of texters stepping in front of city busses. When you make passenger cars have nearly as large of a front face as a city bus that’s a problem. Sometimes pedestrians very clearly cause their own deaths. Sometimes they do not. Even if more than half of pedestrian deaths are not at-fault for the driver, we could and should have taken the steps to address the issue. If we have the capability to make pedestrian friendly cars, why don’t we?

Fortunately, many cars on US roads are subjected to the NCAP tests and are therefore designed to meet their requirements. This is a metric that’s often overlooked but I rank it above amber rear turn indicators as features I look out for. I know my car received a 4 star pedestrian safety rating and that’s pretty good. I don’t care if I’m not at fault in such an accident, I don’t want to kill someone.

Sovande > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 09:59

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Because morons walk into the middle of the street against traffic.  At my old office I saw two people get hit by cars.  Both times it was not the drivers fault.  You can’t be expected to stop in time when someone steps directly in front of a car doing 25-30.  

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Urambo Tauro 10/01/2020 at 10:02

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What that comments section is full of is exclusive blame shifting. Bo th drivers and pedestrians have a long way to go but we’ve had the the ability to make more pedestrian safe cars for many years yet the NHTSA has chosen not to require any sort of pedestrian impact safety requirements whatsoever.

I see lots of unsafe behavior on foot and in cars. I always make sure to make eye contact with any cars that might be making a right turn across my path etc because I know getting run over is a possibility. Meanwhile I see tons of oblivious crossing going on. I also see lots of oblivious scootering going on (or in one case, just seeing who would dare to ride in oncoming traffic for the longest). Doing nothing about the issue is only going to let it get worse.

Urambo Tauro > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 10:08

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Huh . I must’ve missed out on seeing any actual blame shifting ones. The majority of comments I saw were focusing on one party , and the responder misunderstood it as absolving the other party of blame.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Sovande 10/01/2020 at 10:09

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That’s not really what I’m talking about. Clearly the pedestrian was at fault there, probably aided by distracted walking. Often times, pedestrians are hit because of distracted driving. It goes both ways and there is no one party that should bear the brunt of the blame here.

We have had the knowledge and capacity to implement designs that could significantly lessen the chance of injury or death in the event of a pedestrian impact. Why don’t we?

A young friend of a friend was tragically killed after getting hit by a truck recently. She was in 11th grade. The fact that she was jaywalking does not make her death less tragic or avoidable. The driver had no time to stop but the vehicle could have been designed to reduce pedestrian injuries and that would have gone a long way, especially in a 25 mph or so impact. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Urambo Tauro 10/01/2020 at 10:13

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They’re there but most of the comments I saw tended to be pretty one sided. “I see people texting while walking drunk all the time and you can’t expect someone to stop from 40 mph etc.” The article was about the NHTSA’s complete unwillingness to implement pedestrian impact tests.

Sovande > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 10:15

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Getting s truck by a car going 30mph is akin to falling from a height of 62 feet . I’m not sure what car design is going to do to mitigate damage?  Foam front ends?  Exterior airbags?  

hillrat > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 10:21

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As a city dweller who walks, drives, and bikes in the city allow me to assure there is PLENTY of blame to go around.

Let’s start with the drivers. In the city you’re right up on people and can see exactly what they’re doing in their cars pretty much all the time. 9/10 times I see someone run a light/stop sign, not notice a pedestrian as they turn, or doing general dumb shit they are holding a phone in their hand . I want all of those people to be doused in gasoline, set aflame, and never allowed to dri ve again. Then there are the fucking Uber/Lyft drivers that have no fucking idea where they’re going and are staring at their mounted phone as they come to a stop at a green light while they try to figure out if they should turn or go straight. I literally could go on all day about the different types of drivers and how they make life awful.

I live in DC which was one the first cities to codify into law the right of pedestrians to be in the street regardless of circumstance. What this has done is to create a social norm where people do not pay attention when walking because they assume they are safe. In the before times you would see packs of kids and commuters simply walk into traffic against the light because they know the drivers will stop. Pedestrians are aggressively dumb in DC and it can make driving very frustrating when you have an uncontrolled intersection .

Finally there are the bikers. Not as dangerous to pedestrians as a car while being more annoying to drivers because they have the speed to do extra dumb shit. My least favorite? When they come flying up your right side between you and the right turn you’re attempting to make. Y ou would think a sense of self-preservation would keep you from passing a car with a turn signal on the same side and you would be wrong.

My takeaway from all of this? Everyone needs to do better. When you get on the road e veryone needs to consider:

H ow are my actions affecting the people around me?

Am I facilitating the flow of traffic or am I impeding the flow of traffic?

Am I acting like a gigantic asshole because I’m in a hurry, why didn’t I leave the house 5-10 minutes earlier and avoid all this drama?

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Sovande 10/01/2020 at 10:25

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There is a reason the NCAP tests include pedestrian impacts. There has been a huge amount of improvement shown since the tests were introduced.

External airbags aren’t as far fetched as you might image. Most pedestrian deaths involve hitting the head on the A pillar, which could have deployable cushioning in the event of an impact.

And it’s not just about the high speed impacts as it becomes exponentially more dangerous with speed. High and blunt front ends are more dangerous because they are more likely to throw the person forward where they can be hit again and in general produce greater deceleration and G forces. Spreading that force out across more time, distance, and surface area is very important.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 10:30

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This is the sort of reasoned take that is lacking on the FP. There is a lot of blame to go around between distracted/drunk driving, walking, scootering, and biking. In cities speeds are generally slower so there is more reaction time but walking out into the road without checking traffic is moronic no matter where you are. Especially so when you are crossing a multi  lane suburban artery like many people were ranting about.

Textured Soy Protein > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 10:32

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Anything on the FP involving anything relatively negative about trucks is destined to become the Jalop equivalent of the first 2020 presidential debate.

Sovande > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 10:37

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Mo st pedestrian deaths could be avoided if  people stayed out of the street when cars are coming. At some point there has to be a semblance of personal responsibility. If you walk off a pier you don’t sue the water when you get wet.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Sovande 10/01/2020 at 10:42

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Yes, the data shows over 50% of the time that is the case. But even if 25% of the time it is not the pedestrian’s fault, that is a major problem. 

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > BigBlock440 10/01/2020 at 10:43

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People on c rosswalks are one thing and a worthy concern, but I believe I’m on the record saying I don’t give a shit about jaywalkers and don’t see why I should care what happens to them.

Not that I have a problem with the actual act. Heck, I’ve done it myself, and will do it again . But you’re taking your life in your hands and should be treated as such. Look both ways, THOROUGHLY, wait for an adequate space, and FUCKING RUN.

And also, people in general should show some personal responsibility in public instead of being buried in their phones all the time. Look out for your own life, it’s worth more to you than to anyone else.

Sovande > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 10:45

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The problem is with physics, not cars.  If you get hit with anything heavy moving at speed it may kill you.

hillrat > Textured Soy Protein 10/01/2020 at 10:50

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Sad but true. 

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 10:54

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All of this, so hard. Whether you’re in metal, on metal or just a plain old meatbag out there, stay alert, be aware that other people are stupid, and don’t be a jackwipe yourself.

And one for pedestrians in particular - when interacting with cars making right turns on a red, MAKE EYE CONTACT before crossing. It’s not a requirement, but it sure as hell improves your safety. If I’m on foot I do it every time . No eyes, no go. You know the person sees you, and are as safe as you can possibly be unless they want to deliberately murder you. As a driver, I try but don’t do it as much as I should. And while I haven’t made any contact with anyone, I can recall one incident that had I taken the time would have been a safe crossing rather than a panic brake...

Just take an extra second. That’s all it takes. And make it a habit. Helps everyone.

Cash Rewards > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 10:55

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I cannot image mitigating the energy dispensed by a multi-ton vehicle traveling 20+mph and hitting a pedestrian through crash systems that would still need to hd up to a collision with another car.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Sovande 10/01/2020 at 10:55

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Cars can be designed to maximize safety with few compromises elsewhere. Take a look at NCAP’s Vulnerable Road User impact testing on their website.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-ratings-explained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/

Most pedestrian accidents occur within city areas where speeds are moderate.

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The procedure promotes energy absorbing structures and a more forgiving geometry that mitigates injuries.

It is possible to make more pedestrian safe cars but the NHTSA has decided to completely ignore the fact.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Cash Rewards 10/01/2020 at 10:59

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Yet exactly that can be done. The different in mass is usually going to be so great that it comes more down to the geometry of the front of the vehicle. Hoods with crumple zones for limb and head impacts and front bumpers that work to throw the pedestrian on the hood rather than reverse their direction and punt them forward make all the difference. If you don’t design a car to do those things, they won’t. We don’t incentivize automakers to design their cars to do that, so they don’t.

It’s less about the crash structure and more about the body molding being more forgiving.

Sovande > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 11:02

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What is moderate?  25?  That’s still awful fast to get hit with a 4000 pound object.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Sovande 10/01/2020 at 11:06

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I don’t think there is really anything more to say about this.

People are small and fragile compared to cars so you have to extend the distance and time involved in the impact as much as you can to reduce Gs. Unless you design a car to do that, they’ll just punt someone forward, which is a worse case scenario.

I don’t have the expert knowledge to explain how to make a pedestrian safe vehicle. I’m saying we’ve known how to for a while now and the US has not taken any actions to standardize it.

Sovande > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 11:17

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They extended the safety margin sometime around the advent of the horse and buggy . It’s called the sidewalk. If you spend all your time there when the cars are moving you are less likely to be hit by one.

Dead_Elvis, Inc. > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 11:39

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Any time I see the words “public service announcement”, I hear them in Joe Strummer’s voice:

Still quite relevant today.

BigBlock440 > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/01/2020 at 11:45

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I don’t want to kill anyone either, that’s why I use my eyes.  I also don’t want to be stuck on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere because a deer decided to play “pedestrian with a phone”, or have to pay extra for that feature.  Rather than making vehicles that will likely never see a pedestrian cost more and be designed to hit people and kill them less, why not go to the root cause and remove pedestrians from the roadway entirely?  Any solution that still ends with contact isn’t a solution at all and makes nobody safer.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/01/2020 at 12:21

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I don't think anyone is saying that there isn't person accountability and awareness requested when walking. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > BigBlock440 10/01/2020 at 12:27

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We removed pedestrians from the roadway 100 years ago with the sidewalk. And who says your car will break if you hit someone? I just don’ t understand where you’re getting the idea that I want to make cars more fragile. That’s not  really how the physics of this work. Cars need to have less blunt front ends with bodywork that can absorb impacts better. 

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > hillrat 10/01/2020 at 12:28

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I had a laugh yesterday on the Ford Edge giveaway article comment section. Westbrook got bent out of shape . I’m not even sure why I clicked, CoFL had the news on here a day earlier here.

I feel there’s been a real change of the guard in depths below, it’s shifted from a majority of Jalops with their own quirky knowledge to those who seek to dis agree, be combative, and add nothing of value to discussion.

Stef Schrader > Nibby 10/01/2020 at 15:10

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ha HA, I am COMMENTING and I DON’T CARE if OP DOESN’T READ IT

Nibby > Stef Schrader 10/01/2020 at 18:31

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lolz

hillrat > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/02/2020 at 06:43

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Just take an extra second. That’s all it takes. And make it a habit. Helps everyone.

That’s it ^^^^ right there. 

BigBlock440 > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 11/02/2020 at 13:55

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Crumple zones.  You need them to absorb impact, that’s exactly how physics works.  The slower the acceleration, the less force.  If your fender/hood/bumper is hanging or pushed into the tire, or your radiator’s busted, you’re not making it home.